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Episode 101
In this episode of Product Voices, Vinod Thomas, a product manager at Google, discusses his non-traditional journey into product management. He emphasizes the importance of transferable skills such as communication, collaboration, and data analytics, while debunking the myth that coding is essential for the role. Vinod highlights the value of networking and building genuine professional relationships as key to career advancement. He offers advice for aspiring product managers to understand the role deeply and connect their unique backgrounds to product management. His insights provide a roadmap for successfully transitioning into this field.
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TRANSCRIPT
Introduction and Overview
JJ Rorie: Hello and welcome to Product Voices. I'm excited about the conversation today. It's a little rounded conversation. I will say it's going to be an interesting dive into what it looks like to get into product management from a somewhat nontraditional background, if you will. I think a lot of us came from that or at least had some experiences before we got into product management, and that's actually served us very well.
But everybody's story is a little different. So I'm so excited to have my guest today because his background and his story is really great. And I know that you all will learn quite a bit from it.
Guest Introduction: Vinod Thomas
JJ Rorie: So today I'm joined by Vinod Thomas. He's a seasoned product manager. He leads connected TV buying capabilities at Google's display and video 360.
He's got a diverse background spanning Google, Uber, Groupon, and the oil and gas industry. I'm gonna ask him a little bit more about that one. He brings a unique blend of technical expertise and business acumen. Such an important balance and background. He's got a passion for creating impactful products, and that's driven him to develop solutions that empower both small businesses and enterprise clients.
And beyond his role at Google, he's also an active mentor dedicated to sharing his knowledge and giving back to the next generation of product leaders. He has been really great to talk to my folks at Johns Hopkins, so he is a great mentor. A great coach and a great product manager. Vinod, thank you so much for joining me.
Vinod Thomas: Thanks for having me, JJ. I'm really excited to talk to you about my career.
JJ Rorie: Yeah, I'm excited because again, you just have such a great a great career on paper, but the more and more you peel back the onion, if you will it's just more interesting. So with that, let me start by saying, I mentioned that you shifted into product management for maybe a non traditional background.
Vinod's Career Journey
JJ Rorie: So can you elaborate a little bit more on your background and then what initially drew you to product management and how you navigated that transition? Thank you.
Vinod Thomas: Yeah, I think that's a great question. So let me talk to you a little bit about my career. I did my undergrad studies in India, and then I worked in the oil and gas industry for about four years. It was one of the largest petroleum companies in India that I worked in, and my role there was to ensure that a metropolitan city that I worked in had the right fuel supply on a daily basis.
And then, in 2013, that's when, Amazon launched in India, and I was very much interested in Amazon at that point of time, and I started understanding the beginnings of Amazon, the founder of Amazon, and I came up, came across this quote from Jeff Bezos, where he always used to talk about his regret minimization framework.
So what he basically talks about is you project yourself to 70 years or 80 years of age and look back at decisions that you've taken and think about which of them you regret. And his goal was to minimize his regrets as much as possible. And that's why he left his high paying job and then started Amazon.
And that really resonated with me at that point of time. And I really wanted to explore things that I've not done in my career at that point of time. So that's how I came to the U. S. to pursue my master's. And I then went on to work at Amazon, which was one of my dream companies as an intern. And that probably opened my door to the tech industry.
And I then went on to work at Groupon, where I started working very closely with engineers and product managers. And then I worked at Uber. Specifically in Uber Freight, which was a startup with an Uber and was an ultra high growth environment. And I got to lead a team of analysts and like experiment a lot, which taught me a lot of things there.
And then I eventually moved to Google in 2020. And I've. I've been there for about four and a half to five years and right now I'm a product manager at Google's display and video 360 team, which is basically an enterprise demand side platform where advertisers and marketers can come to purchase ad campaigns on video, connected TV, audio and other channels all in one place.
And like you touched upon, I specifically manage the connected TV business within display and video 360. And yeah, I've been enjoying my carrier as a product manager and the whole transition process that I went through. So another question that you asked me was, what initially drew me to product management.
So honestly I really encountered the field of product management after I came to the US and I started working at Groupon. When I looked at product managers from outside, I realized that they have a lot more control over the product And they have say in decisions that the product always takes. At the core, they were builders and I related very closely with that.
And really good PMs often employed problem solving skills, customer empathy, and strategic thinking. And they were ultimately the owner of the product. Everyone used to go to them for decisions and Directed the direction that the product should go towards and overall, they were the decision makers of the product and that kind of like really resonated with me and the kind of person I am where I wanted to own things, take more responsibility and lead teams and I saw that this could be a career path that I could explore.
But one thing I quickly realized was that product management is a difficult field to get into because it's it's highly competitive. It's highly sought out and you need certain skills and trust from the teams that you're trying to get into to give you that role. So I. Kind of focused on developing my skills first.
And the way I did that was to partner closely with product teams. Get into projects specifically that they deprioritized and put my skills into play and then hone those skills and build that trust. So as I continue to do this, I built those skills that were absolutely necessary for product management and eventually when the right role opened up, I was able to showcase this and then find the right opportunity.
So it is not a quick process. It had to go through many years of hard work. But as when I was confident that I had the right skills, I was able to pounce on an opportunity and get the real title of a product manager.
JJ Rorie: I just love that story and I love the advice because there's, there are so many skills that are needed in product management, but it's not, they're not unique to product management necessarily there, there are skills that can be built in other roles and then transferred over to product management. So I loved that you were so insightful and intentional about, pinpointing the roles and excuse me, the skills that you may need and in other roles, making sure that you were building those.
So that's such great advice for anyone out there listening. You don't have to be in product management right now to be around product management, and you don't have to be in a product manager role to build the skills. That are needed. So let's dive in there.
Skills for Aspiring Product Managers
JJ Rorie: What are some of those skills that you identified that you needed to build?
And as you were thinking about moving into product management and waiting for that right opportunity to come, what are some of those skills that you needed to build?
Vinod Thomas: Yeah, I think again, great question. So Like you said, you don't need to have the title of product manager to be a product manager. And I realized that like early on in my career, and I focused on skills development. And as I was going through the whole skills development process, I realized that like many of the skills that are required to be a product manager are transferable skills.
There are quite a few transferable skills, but maybe I can touch upon Two to three skills here. And then we could talk a little bit about that. I think one common skills that I see you've seen across multiple roles is, communication and collaboration. You can't really function without communicating effectively and collaborating effectively across teams.
There was a book that really influenced me as I was building my career, and that's called how to win friends and influence people. It's written by Dale Carnegie. He stresses upon the influence portion and the collaboration portion and what you need to get do to get better at that.
And I'd say that's a universal skill, right? Communication and collaboration is really universal and as a PM, you have to constantly communicate and you have to constantly communicate at different levels to different kinds of stakeholders. Translate information in ways that people understand and it's basically at the core communication and, thinking through my career, I was a program manager before I became a product manager and as a program manager, I did have to communicate to stakeholders.
The type of conversations were different, but I think the core skill was still communication, communicating effectively and As I constantly honed that skill, I realized that, that's a transferable skill. If I learn how to communicate as a product manager by using some of the core basics, I can maybe leverage this in my new role as well.
Another core skill that really helped me or continues to help me right now is my data analytics skill. I used to work very closely with data. I, used to write SQL queries, build dashboards, really understand how customers were using products, and it's actually really a very important skill to have as a product manager.
If you look at data critically, understand the trends of how the product is functioning, you can actually make much more sound decisions than someone who doesn't. Like really look at data. Data helped me like experiment with ideas and measure the results of those experiments using data. So I think data skill was really a transferable skill that I realized was very important and I still use data in my day to day life to make better decisions.
So I think if you use a lot of data, if you're a data scientist, if you're a data analyst product management is a potential career that you can get into but start, you start thinking at data a little bit more critically, start trying to form decisions or ideas out of the trends that you see.
And then when you see that you're trying to come up with ideas and directions for the product product management is a field that you could potentially think about getting into. And then lastly, one other skill is like general leadership and stakeholder management. I mentioned that, I'm. I was a program manager and a primary part of my role there was to manage stakeholders and then lead these stakeholders towards a common goal.
Project managers and program managers do it slightly differently from product managers, but as a product manager, execution is a big part of the role and you are a program manager in. In a big portion of your day to day responsibility. So I think the skills that I learned there to understand who the stakeholders are measuring their goals, identifying the right metrics and pushing them to deliver on their goals are still valuable and useful as a product manager.
And those are really transferable skills as well. So I think those are a few that I can think about, but there are many more that are transferable. So You know as you explore the field, you start realizing that there are many transferable skill and then you can probably prioritize what you need to hone on and, gain an advantage on to get into this field.
JJ Rorie: Yeah, I agree with that. And those three are really foundational and so important. But to your point there, there are a lot of skills that we need in product management and you're probably working on some of them in any role that you have. And be be, aware that there are things that you're building in yourself as you go. But I love those three. Those are really important. Communication, data analysis, and stakeholder management, leadership, influence. Those are so foundational to product management. So I want to ask you something and because of your background and your knowledge and your success in moving your career the way that you wanted it to go you run into this assumption in the product world that a product manager needs a coding background and especially in tech companies.
And I guess there are some companies out there that require it for the most part. It may be an unwritten rule. It's certainly something that folks assume is needed in some cases. Yeah. You don't have that. I don't have that.
Building Credibility Without a Coding Background
JJ Rorie: There have been lots of us who have been successful without it, but how did you go about building credibility, building your confidence in working in this technical field and technical teams without a coding foundation?
Vinod Thomas: While I don't code, I think I invested a lot of my time in developing a strong technical fluency.
JJ Rorie: Yeah.
Vinod Thomas: And I think that's very important as a product manager. There's a lot of communication with engineers that needs to happen. To develop a product that's functional and it actually serves the needs of customers.
So I really invested in understanding technical concepts, system architectures, basics of technologies and basics of the technologies of the product that I work that I got to work in. Another thing is acknowledging that you don't know about this. And then going to engineers who know about this to bounce your ideas off and ask very basic questions on how a product works at its very core.
If you get to that level of simplicity and ask questions, you understand how a product works, which is what I think is very important for a product manager. I think the other thing which I felt was very important was building, building trust through collaboration. As a product manager, like I said before, you have to keep collaborating I focused on fostering a collaborative culture by respecting the expertise of technical teams and positioning myself as a partner rather than an authority.
So I often don't tell engineers to solve a problem in a particular way. I come up with like high level ideas on what the product needs to do and then come up with a collaborative solutioning method where we come into a room and then brainstorm on potential ideas and then choose what's, what makes the best sense for the customer from a business and technical standpoint.
Other thing that really helped me build trust with my engineering teams is demonstrating deep customer and market knowledge. So I've invested heavily in understanding my customers, listening to their concerns, and then translating those customer needs. Into product needs that teams can then take on, and then work on coming out with solutions.
So I think I felt that engineers have appreciated this skill of mine where even though like I don't code, I can go to customers, explain the product that I'm working on, better get feedback from them, and then translate those back to engineering requirements that can be executed by our engineers. So I think.
And then a product manager needs to be organized. A big part of my exercise at this point of time in the year is to come up with roadmaps for next year. And the ideas come from various platforms and stakeholders and customers and an engineer of often. Appreciates if you are able to organize the things that they need to work on and building those streamlined product roadmaps strategy and different plans for different quarters are valuable skill that helps you build trust.
So I think overall. Having these skills that I just mentioned is very important as a product manager. So coding, while it helps product manager to help someone in a coding background to become a product manager, I don't necessarily know, don't necessarily think that you need to be a coder to be a good product manager.
You can build a product sense through other ways. And, you can build trust by being a good collaborator. And. And taking the product forward through actual impact and results.
JJ Rorie: I think that's such great advice for someone who doesn't have that coding background, doesn't have that tech background. I think it's really important that in one of the first things you mentioned is having that literacy. A product manager, by its very nature, is a kind of a well rounded, balanced skillset.
And so we don't have to be experts in certain areas, but we do have to have a literacy of certain areas, just like we have to have good business acumen. We don't have to be a CFO and or financial analyst, but we have to understand, the business impact in the financial impact of some of our decisions.
Same thing. We don't have to be someone who can write the code And build the software, but we have to understand the general the general structure and the general kind of foundation of how it works. And so I love that advice and really want to pinpoint what you said about Letting others be the experts when that's their role, right?
We are a product team. This is a collaborative function. And to build to build that trust and that confidence in each other, we have to do our job, which is the market, the customer being that steward of of knowledge there, and then the technical folks bringing that knowledge in.
So I love your approach. I think it's so important for anyone listening to, to really embrace that and embody that. Whether you're from a tech background or not, that collaboration and that balance skill set is gonna set you up.
The Importance of Networking
JJ Rorie: So I want to turn the discussion slightly I have to imagine that from going from the oil and gas industry, which, by the way, that, that role sounds fascinating to, to, and what pressure no big deal, just the whole city counts on you but going from that world To the states and grad school and then, several big tech companies, there had to have been networking involved.
There had to have been connections that you were building, like talk to me a little bit about how important that networking was to the transition or any specific stories or strategies or types of connections that you think are important when you're trying to shift careers and specifically shift into product management.
Vinod Thomas: Yeah. When I was in India I did my undergrad studies from an engineering institute and the way I got my first role is through campus recruitment. So what happened there was, companies come to the, to the college and they recruit a bunch of students who get to work in the company.
And then many of. The students who get into companies like the ones I am, they just stay on there for like many years and they retire there. So that's the career path that they follow. And the whole idea of networking was something that I never knew about, at least for the very first part of my career.
I really got to know the importance of networking after I came to the US because that's when I really realized that, getting a job or like excelling in a job. requires partnerships with people that you've not worked with. And also you can do, you can become a better person by listening to others and observing their careers and also taking advice from them and then building these genuine connection that will stay with you for many years down the road.
So I really started realizing that like when I was starting to look for my internship opportunities and I had to like, Understand the whole market in the US itself on like how applying to jobs worked, how writing resumes worked, which Everything was very different when I came here. And the only way I could do that was talking to people and then they connected me to more people.
And then I found that this was like an exciting process because you're starting to hear new perspectives from people every time you reach out to someone new. And then as I grew, like I was able to maintain these relationships over time and then always be plugged into what they were doing in their careers, seeing how they were growing and then taking learnings from them.
I think getting into product management networking did really help me in identifying what opportunities to work on. I early on during this conversation mentioned that getting to product management was a difficult task for me. And when I thought of product management as a role that I wanted to get into, I very quickly realized that, it's not something that I can just quickly interview and then find a role that maybe successful people like that.
But I certainly wasn't successful in interviewing and getting into product management when I really thought about the career at the time. And I use networking to identify opportunities. So the way I networked was first I had a tech job. I was in the tech industry and I started identifying product teams and engineering teams and then taking genuine interest in what they were doing, taking a look at their roadmaps, understanding what their overall strategy was, and then asking basic questions to them with the purpose of learning and not questioning their ideas.
I wanted to like really learn how they were doing things And then I build those genuine connections where they help me understand how they were performing their role on a day to day basis and a unique thing that happened here was oftentimes as a product manager, you create a road map and there are many projects that go be below the cut line because you may not have resources may it may not be the highest priority for the team.
And I often went to them and ask them, Can I work on these projects? Because, I understand that these may not be your top priority projects, but it gives me an opportunity to, build my skills in product management. So I think those are the networking type of connections that help me build the skill of product management.
I started writing PRDs. I started writing strategy docs for those projects that were not prioritized, but it still gave me insights into how a product manager worked, what conversations they need to have with engineers to understand how engineers think, some of the edge cases that need to be thought about.
So I think that was a networking that happened within the company to get into product management. And then as you build connection, it should always be a two way connection is what I always feel. It's it shouldn't be. I've often seen connections or, connection requests or networking requests coming away just for the need for referrals.
Referrals are like, giving them some advice on reviewing their resume. And I think those are networking connections don't last for a long time because those are not genuine connection. But if you're genuinely interested in what someone is doing, you can get information from them and then build this connection that goes on for a long period of time.
And that's what I try to focus. I try to focus At least like in my earlier parts of my career to build these genuine connections where I can still go now and then talk to them and then talk about any topic that both of us are interested in. So I think those are some advices. But yeah, I guess is that's what I wanted to quickly touch upon here.
JJ Rorie: Yeah, I think there's so many people in so many people aspiring to get into product management, whether they're coming out of university or already in their career and wanted to move in. people aspiring to move around in product management. And so networking and community building is so important, but it's not easy, right?
It's not an easy thing to do. It's not an easy thing to sustain, but it is so important to longterm success. And so I love your last point, especially about, just finding those folks that you can have two way, community. Relationship with, if you will, or connection with and some folks, especially the younger folks or the folks in university now that I teach and that you've, been introduced to and have mentored they feel as if there's not a lot they can give back to the, someone like you, for example, Who they would love to network with and connect with, but, they think, what am I going to give to Vinod, as a PM of Google what's he going to need from me, a student there may be some truth to that, but the truth is they bring perspective, they bring fresh ideas back to your, to one of your first points of, even though it was internal networking that you were doing, there are opportunities to just bounce ideas off of folks, right?
And so anything that you can do to build that two way relationship, nobody wants, to be asked for something without, having some return. And that return doesn't have to be anything tangible, but just again, sounding board community, someone else to talk to. So love that advice.
I think it's really important. And. Again, networking is never that thing that's going to, you make one contact and you're going to get a job that, we sometimes wish it worked that way, but it usually doesn't, right? It's a long term thing. But I love that advice. I think it's ultimately. kind of spot on what we as a community in product need to do, because there've been many times when I haven't necessarily spoken to someone in a year or so, but they reach out and, we get reconnected and, do something together, and learn something from each other or do business together, whatever it may be.
So that's great advice. So I think just to finish up the conversation I've loved the advice that you've given maybe just to put a bow on it.
Final Advice for Aspiring Product Managers
JJ Rorie: Is there like one piece of advice that if somebody was looking to transition into product management, that would be the thing that they can leave this podcast thinking about and doing? Is there just that like that one next step or that one thing that someone could do from here to maybe get started on that transition?
Vinod Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Product management is often seen as a flashy field because it's reputable. There's a lot of demand for the field. It pays pretty well. So I think if you're thinking about a carrier in product management, I think I'd urge that person to understand the role really deeply.
PMs really act as the bridge between business and industry. technical and design teams, and they focus on delivering value to customers and businesses. And, it's also about managing people and managing decisions, priorities and strategies. So it's not a role that always fits everyone and understanding the role in depth and observing real product managers and having conversations with them will help you evaluate if it's, if this is something that you need to do.
Or you want to do, in a big part of your career, there are a lot of challenges to being a product manager. You're often managing big business scope and there are deliverables you're managing customer expectations. You're managing products at scale that are often used by customers across the world.
So there's complexity and responsibility on you that makes the role challenging. So I think knowing the pros and cons of role will help you make the decision on whether this is a field that you really want to get into. And once you make that decision, try to see how you can connect your. past role, your leverage, your unique background, by tying those transferable skills To the role that you want to get into, but also working on those new skills that are required as a product manager.
I spoke about the technical fluency, building that literacy, building those communication skills coming up with business acumen by understanding how businesses work, how you need to translate those business goals into production. Product requirements and then eventually getting hands on experience, which is the best way to explore this role and make a call on whether you want to be a product manager.
So I think those are a few things that I can think about. But being very clear in your mind that product management is your field that you want to get into. will help you plan your career in such a way that you can eventually find an opportunity in that field and then take your career forward.
JJ Rorie: Yeah, that's such great advice. I, it brings to mind something I tell, again, my students. I've brought them up a lot in this conversation, but my students at Johns Hopkins because the class, the classes that I teach are electives, right? And so nobody is required to take this course. All of them are taking fundamentals of product management or some Course similar course because they're interested in being product managers or at least learning more about the potential career.
And I tell them if you have solidified in your mind to some extent that this is a field that you want that's great. But if you've also decided that maybe it's not for you, that's also great. Because again you can't necessarily know that just from a class but it does help if you see the kind of foundation of what product management is and you think, ah, that's not really for me, that's still a good outcome for you, right?
So it's not for everyone. It is a great job. It is a tough job there are lots of great jobs out there. And so if someone, doesn't want to be a product manager after learning what it is all about. That's great. That's still a perfectly fine outcome. Really prudent advice there.
Conclusion and Farewell
JJ Rorie: I think so, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you so very much for spending the time with me and for sharing your insights. I know the listeners are going to love your wisdom and your advice for them. So thank you again, Vinod Thomas for joining me on Product Voices.
Vinod Thomas: Great. Thank you. Thank you so much, JJ, for having me. It's always great to talk to you and I looking, I look forward to being genuinely connected with you and learning what you do in your career by spreading the knowledge on product management.
JJ Rorie: Thank you so much. And thank you all for joining us on Product Voices. Hope to see you on the next episode.