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Episode 093
Purni Siddarth, Principal Product Manager at Peek shares key insights from her experience at Expedia, Dividend Finance, and Peek, emphasizing the importance of optimized processes, software choices, and infrastructure for successful scalability. She advocates for a minimum viable approach, collaboration, and feedback to drive effective product scaling. Tune in for valuable perspectives on enhancing your product management skills.
TRANSCRIPT
[0:02] Welcome to Product Voices, a podcast where we share valuable insights and useful resources to help us all be great in product management. Visit the show's website to access the resources discussed on the show, find more information on our fabulous guests, or to submit your product management question to be answered on our special Q&A episodes. That's all at productvoices.com. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. Now, here's our host, JJ Rorie, CEO of Great Product Management. Hello, and welcome to Product Voices. On this episode, we're going to be talking about scaling products.
[0:42] So this is not always easy, as we know. Sometimes we find ourselves with a successful product in the market that we've gone after or a particular user group. We found product market fit and we're in the need to scale that up and go to a bigger market or offer it in a larger way. And that's a really good problem to have, but it's not always that easy. And sometimes we fail or at least have some hiccups along the way. And so today we're all about scaling products and how to bring those to a bigger market or make them successful in a larger degree. And my guest today is an expert on this in terms of, you know, doing this throughout various roles in her career. So I'm excited to talk to her. Purni Siddarth is Principal Product Manager at Peek. She also has past experience as Director of Product at Dividend Finance and also experience at Expedia and Credo Mobile.
[1:43] Purni, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, JJ. Thank you so much for having me. I have been a huge fan of your podcast for a very long time now. I've been listening for two years. This was even before I joined Peak. And the interesting fact here is I had just finished my interview process with Peak and I was about to join. That's when your episode with you featured Navya in your podcast, Navya Rehani Gupta. She's the CPO at Peek and I am on her team. So it's almost like we've come like a good two years in and here I am. I'm really excited to be speaking with you here today. I love it. I love it. And I've loved our conversations over the years and getting to know you. So I'm so excited that we're formalizing one of our conversations in this podcast. So I mentioned a very brief bio of yours, but tell me a little bit more about your experience with scaling products and how that experience has kind of led you to, you know, your belief or your kind of thought process around scaling products.
[2:40] Happy to. So I've been an engineer. I did coding for a good 10, 12 years before I shifted into product. I faced a layoff that gave me the existential question as to, okay, what's next? And I joined product management, took a six-month sabbatical and got into product. Thankful for all the coaching and guidance that I got from product school. So that definitely put me on a good path. But I still, 10 years and almost 10 years in, and I still don't see myself are ready enough to be the zero to 1 p.m. yet. So scaling is definitely my jam, wherein there's an established product and the company is trying to get to the next phase to grow to 10 exit. And that's where I love being part of that energy because you can solve a lot through implementation, through like software choices, through architecture choices, to infrastructure choices. And that is my happy place. So when I joined Expedia as a technical product manager in 2016, it was going through a reorg of sorts within the itinerary team. So our team was responsible for the customer's itinerary, as well as their booking confirmation email. So we were known as the post-booking experience.
[3:51] And then that team was then split into pods, squads, one for the hotels, one for flights, one for experiences, one for cars or car rentals. So that's kind of like those are the lines of businesses that Expedia runs, used to run at least. So there it was like a scaling thing. Like, hey, Purni, you're in charge of flights. What can you and your team do to scale flights to solve customer problems in the itinerary when it's like a flight booking, when it is like confirmation email with a flight. And it was across all points of sale. It was across all our geographic locations. So the very first one was internationalization and localization for the APAC region, finishing a responsive itinerary. So that was one. So that was the first scaling foray. But I did that for like two years. That's where a lot of my product chops were definitely refined there. Then came Dividend Finance, which was a fledgling startup established in 2013, going through a growth phase. I joined in 2017, and that was like magical. Like, hey, how do we 10x this product? How can we make intelligent choices through solutions, through technical solutions?
[4:56] So building frameworks, understanding a workflow, understanding a process, how do you bring it online? And once you bring it online, what are the tweaks you can make? So taking time to build something, to build a foundation, but once it's built to see it reap rewards in further iteration. So we did that with integrating with capital providers. So the first one, we took like five months to build and fully automated integration. We learned, we had like a completely manual process. We identified areas to improve. We automated that and we refined it. And that was a lot of back and forth of data and files between dividend finance systems and the capital provider. Dividend finance used to be, right now, happily acquired as part of Fifth Third. But at that time, we used to originate loans for solar installations and home improvement projects. So it's a B2B space. So similarly, now at Peak, I'm at the payments infrastructure.
[5:55] We are able to take payments. It's, again, a B2B2C space where we work with tour operators. And the operators, we provide them with booking software, bringing them online, bringing their paper processes online, enabling them with tools because their successes are success.
[6:11] Then how do you identify the infrastructure changes? Taking time to build it. But once you build it, how do you 10x the growth? So that playbook is definitely, it feels like I had a plan from the beginning. No, not so. But I'm able to see that I'm able to repeat it. And that pattern gives me the most joy to take time and then to see it like just work the next iteration around. That's fun. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's so much of about product and being successful in product is, which is learning from what we've done before, both good and bad or success, successes and failures, right. And so, you know, learning what's worked and what may work in this new situation, or circumstances is really important. So I have maybe a dumb question to set some context here. Do you see a difference in just, you know, kind of general growth or the desire to grow your product, right, sell more of your product, and scaling, right? Right. Is that semantics or is do you see scaling more of an internal function and growth more of kind of an external facing or or do you do you see much difference in just, you know, 10x in growth and 10x in operation success?
[7:35] To me, it's two sides of the same coin, right? If you take the time to build infrastructure that is setting you up for scale, and once you're set up for scale, it will automatically bring growth. That's how I see it.
[7:48] It is possible to do both at the same time, right? Because when it comes to the breadth and depth of a product, you can take the time to build the infrastructure to scale. That's at the depth level. How do you improve the depth? While at the same time with the existing product, with the existing tools at hand, how do you expand the breadth? It is possible to do both. That's where I would, I like the way I frame roadmaps, quarterly roadmaps to say that, hey, this quarter, if this is the breadth that we are going after in order to achieve these companies quarterly goals, how can we also dedicate and allocate time and energy and resources to focus on the depth? Because very soon this depth is going to come to the top and that's going to give you more breadth, right? So to me, I see both as like two sides of the same coin. Yeah, that makes sense. You cannot, I mean, you could get growth without scaling, but eventually you're going to realize that you need to have the tools to scale in order to tenet your growth. Exactly, exactly. And I think sometimes that growth comes and then we're caught off guard and like, oh, how do we scale our business to accommodate that? But I like your point that it's basically the, you know, two sides of the coin. So thank you. That makes a lot of sense. And I always, I like to have those kinds of conversations. And I think we use words and terms in product management, I guess in business in general, but in product management a lot. And sometimes we throw them around without really thinking about what they mean.
[9:14] And sometimes that semantics matters. And sometimes, you know, it's, it's, it's superfluous. But anyway, that was, that was a great way to say that. So thinking about, you know, again, the experiences you've had.
[9:28] Throughout your, you know, all of your different roles, are there some mistakes that product teams make or organizations make when they're trying to scale, you know, some kind of common things that they, you know, traps that they fall into or things that they don't do that maybe you've seen that if they were to avoid those either doing things or not doing some of the successful things that would help them scale products?
[9:59] Happy to speak about my own mistakes here. When you rush to build things, right? I am very risk averse. I'm very cautious. That's just generally my nature. I need to be sure of everything before I take step forward. Sometimes the downside of that is analysis paralysis. It's really hard to be stuck in this brain for a long time. I'll admit that. But one of the things that recently happened was in Q4 2023.
[10:28] Give me a minute. Before I go into that, I need to talk about the responsibilities of my team. That way, the story will make sense. So the payments team at Peak is responsible for complete, accurate, secure, reliable, and innovative financial solutions for our customers for them to grow because their growth is our growth. And what does that mean? It is the flow of funds, from when a tour operator takes a payment on an activity booking to when that money lands in their bank account and everything in between.
[10:58] That whole gamut, that flow of funds is something that my team is responsible for. And what that also means is introducing new payment methods for them to take payments to increase conversion. And then the methods in which they take payments, is it like a credit card payment? Is it like a one-click payment? Is it through a reader that's connected and you swipe the card? Is it some of the newer readers? What is the innovation in that field? How does the payment come in? How does it move through the systems? Should a refund come in or should a customer file for a chargeback? Who pays what money when? My team has to be aware of it all the time and that has to reflect in the report. So my team is also responsible for financial reporting and accounting as well. We have internal stakeholders with the the accounting team and the finance team. So that's what the payments team at PEAT does. That's your underlying infrastructure for tour operators and activity operators.
[11:52] To use our software, Peak Pro software, to grow their business. And ultimately, our mission is to connect the world through experiences. So that is Peak in a nutshell and payments at Peak in a nutshell. So coming to the failure story, we are always looking for innovative payment methods to introduce into our system, into the end customer flow, so that our end customer in, say, the Netherlands can pay with ideal as a payment method. An end customer in Canada can pay with Interac, so on, right? To research that market and to be able to figure out when is the best time to layer in a payment method that we can launch. So Q4, we launched a new payment method called Link.
[12:35] Earlier in the year, we had done Apple Pay, Google Pay, and we had also launched Idea. So we already had like three payment methods under our belt in 2023. We were super excited seeing the conversion numbers. And then we were like, oh, okay, let's finish the year with one more. Let's get four in the bag, So we work closely with Stripe, and Link is a payment method that we were able to integrate through Stripe. We launched Link, and we were like, yeah, this is awesome. Customers can just either save their bank account or their credit card information, one click, and they can do it. The real innovation here is a customer who's, say, for example, going to New York with their family. They want to do say a skating experience and then they want to go visit a museum and they want to go do an immersive experience right that customer can save their payment information with link and use the same one click across those three activity providers so that was like the unlock right and for us those activity providers are our customers so it was like oh this is going to be great. And we launched it under two weeks because we were like, Q4 goals, let's get it done. But what we failed to see was all the operational impacts that we didn't account for.
[13:50] Because we had operators that were like, hey, I need to have a card on file because should this customer come and they have a damage, how do I recoup my damage? Or, hey, they are in person here. They booked the activity. Now they want to take a picture with their family and they want to pay for the picture. But now I need to take payment information again. You're slowing down my operations. Or, hey, this customer finished their activity. They've gone back home. And as a memory, they want to buy a t-shirt from me. But then I have to now call them and ask them for that information, right? So all the operational pieces we hadn't accounted for. That's the depth part, right? We went for the breadth. We went for, hey, let's get more new payment methods in there. But we completely dropped the ball on the depth. And it took us like two whole quarters to go catch up on that on the reporting side, because our finance team and accounting team were suddenly seeing numbers that didn't add up to your traditional credit card payment method. And they were like, what is this new thing that you people have pulled up? And doesn't make sense for me, right? So it was like, it took us a whole two whole quarters to clear up our act. So that's a failure there. Thing that we learned from. So now I'm like all the more cautious with the payment patterns that we're going to do in 2024. So that's one thing that I'll always remember. My team also remembers. They were like, oh my God, it took us two whole quarters to clean up. Yeah, but it only took you two weeks to get it out. So don't forget that. But that's actually a good learning is that we can tout how quickly we get something out.
[15:19] Have we done it in a way that we've found all the holes in the process, right? Or what could happen? And I often talk to folks about thinking about the absolute, you know, worst thing that could happen or, you know, whatever it is, you know, to try and plug some of those holes before you get out, because we're always trying to get things out quicker and meet goals and etc. So that's a great story. I mean, that did give us, that gave us, the learning has been so good that it forced my team to sit and write down every
[15:49] single payment touchpoint operationally as well. So now we have a better playbook in hand. We were like, okay, here are all the touchpoints. Our QA team is now rock solid on the automation side. Okay, if these are the touchpoints, this is what we can automate. This needs to be manual.
[16:04] So the QA team is there. The dev team has like a full scope of all the areas, all the touchpoints. And as a PM working with them so closely, I am getting better at asking those questions. Anytime there's a request from the market to say, hey, in this market, in this country, this payment method is popular. We need that in our software. It forces me to pause and ask all those questions. Hey, what are, of all this list, which are the ones that's important to the customer? And having that collaboration and conversation internally is definitely the benefits of that lesson there. Yeah, I love it. And thanks for sharing that story. Because again, we all, we all learned from, you know, things that we would have done differently, you know, in hindsight, and the truth is, we're better for it, right? Just like that, your example, we are, we are better for it as a product team. Now, it just we had a cup had to go through a couple hiccups to get there. But so so that brings me to to another question, which is.
[17:07] You know, do you have frameworks or working models or things that you have found that help you avoid as many mistakes as possible? Obviously, that, you know, being perfect isn't a thing in our world, but, you know, avoiding and kind of seeing around the corner as much as possible. Any frameworks that you found that kind of work as we're trying to scale up?
[17:31] Sure i'm going to take you all a little back uh on a journey with product voices itself one of the episodes that now we are recorded early on i do have to reference it so i would highly encourage everybody to go back and listen to that episode the product avocado so that's one of my favorite uh yeah one of my favorite episodes like well avocado is my favorite too as a thing to eat so let me admit that and not not with the one done with the peas or the cilantro let me right Right? Who does that? Weirdo. Okay. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Guacamole with peas. Not me. Sign me out. All right. Back to it. So product avocado, right? So the way Navya explained it was we have the layers of the avocado. We have the product vision. And then we focus on top-down goals for what's important to the business. And with the goals, us PMs, I'm not the only PM on Navya's team. We have like four more amazing PMs. all of us then identify opportunities, top opportunities in our respective product areas that will get us the most impact and achieve the customer outcomes that match to that goal. So your layers of avocado. One of the things that the framework that I apply a lot, learning from the link mistake and other mistakes also is.
[18:46] As I am thinking through the top opportunities and making a recommendation to the leadership team, to Navya, to say that, hey, I think within the payments, these are the things that we need to be working on over the next three months that will get us the outcome that we're looking for. But I'm also always thinking about the 18-month payment strategy that I own because of all the areas that my team is responsible for. I have payment strategy like every 18 months. We're like, hey, this is what Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, 2025 and so on. So anchoring myself to that, okay, and looking ahead in the horizon. If this is an immediate thing, this is a top opportunity for Q2 or top opportunity for Q3, what is going to be on the dock for Q4, right? Not necessarily something that may get prioritized because it depends on the company's goals at that point in time. But how can I as a PM have a not loose side of that? So the framework that I use is like, here are the top opportunities that I recommend that we do this quarter, but I'm always keeping an eye on what's next. And that's where it is the product refinement, right? Hey, we've launched something that could be better. Let's take care of tech debt or hey, we have this new market that's coming up that we don't know anything about. Let's spend some time doing analysis, doing market research.
[20:06] For me, a lot of this comes from my learning from Teresa Torres's continuous product discovery through continuous interviewing. I base a lot of my thinking and framework on what I learned in that course, talking to customers, talking to internal stakeholders, getting their feedback and applying that, keeping that refined. So even though I may not be able to act on it right now, it helps me refine something that's amorphous, something that's ambiguous right now, because I have to put in that work as a PM so that as a team, we are able to then execute on it should it become the priority in the next quarter, right? So that framework of what is important now, why is it important now? And given what we know, what else should we know before the next thing becomes important? So keeping an eye on both and setting aside time, dedicated time and blocking off time in my calendar to be able to do deep product work in those areas, talking to customers, talking to stakeholders, synthesizing that conversation, that learning, sharing with my engineering team to do deep dives into, hey, what does this mean at the software level? How can we intelligently solve for this? How can we add the next layer to the scaling problem? So those are things that I've.
[21:25] Regularly do. The one other piece with the scaling thing that I mentioned about is like focusing on the depth. When you're looking at processes and you're able to identify areas of improvement, documenting those areas of improvement, but then looking for a pattern that ties it all together, looking for a theme that says that, hey, if I'm going to focus on this general theme for my customers, here are all the things that I can knock out by combining it into one, right? So So learning to see those patterns, literally read the tea leaves, see those patterns, identifying the opportunities on when we should be working on that so that the customers can benefit most. The piece that I do, I typically do is when it comes to infrastructure changes, I tend to slot it around Q4 because it's like, hey, this is how you prepare for the big bang the following year. So I tend to line up things in Q3, gearing up towards it, refining it, scoping it, having those discussions. And then Q4 is the time where I said, okay, now we go do this. We've done this. I did this at dividend. I'm doing this at peak also. Any core infrastructure change, Q4 is when I slot it.
[22:41] Q1 is when I test the waters with a few customers to say, okay, is this holding up? Are my assumptions being vetted, validated, like instrumenting the analytics and the data piece, and then really seeing it bring the flywheel effect Q2 onwards. So those are three things, right? The depth, focusing on the depth, refining the product because there's always improvement, there's always room for improvement, and figuring out what needs to happen now because that's the breadth part. What does the customer need now? Because with tour operators, you have the seasonality, right? Now everybody's getting up for summer vacation. So what do I need to solve right now? Versus, hey, what can I do in the slower months so that we can line up for success the following year? Yeah, I love that. It makes so much sense. A few things that I love about it is the focus on short term and long term. And I think that's so, it's such an important balance that we have to do in product. And we don't always do it well, right? And so kind of, yeah, it is, right? And very often we, the long term takes a backseat to the short term because we've got, you know, eyeballs on us and goals on us and all these things, right? Right. But but I like this is is almost a forcing function to work that strategy into the work. That's that brings me to this kind of the second thing that I love about this is it's seemingly unethical.
[24:08] It doesn't seem like another work stream or a different framework or a different type of way of working.
[24:16] And I think that's what happens in product so often is that we overcomplicate things. And listening to you talk about how you do this, it's really using some of the same customer discovery habits, hopefully, that you already need to have. And that's just part of part of the job, focusing on the strategy that's there, both kind of, you know, near term and long term. All of these things, they're not reinventing any wheels. They're just using what we have and and using those as functions of our work.
[24:48] So I think it's it's just really good advice to tie it all together. And I think that's, you know, the thing I think I love most about this conversation so far is just that breadth and depth, right? And it's so easy for us to go either really deep or really wide. And it's not always that easy to go to do both.
[25:12] And in terms of scaling products, we really have to. So that makes a lot of sense. it so i mean i do have one point to add here right because like you said it's nothing new it's not like a new framework that poor knee woke up and came up with and like the product absolutely let's put your name on it sure why not i don't know let's call it something why not let's patent it someday someday but i think this is definitely i do want to say uh i'm grateful and thankful for the room that my leaders have given me right be it at expedia be it at dividend be it at peak with.
[25:47] There is opportunity to contribute, to suggest, to give a suggestion, to show it, right? Hey, let me try this out, right? And to have the space and the safety net to say, hey, Purni is trying something out and there may be like problems here, but we learn from it, right? For the leadership team to trust these ideas, to give me a sandbox to play in, to say, okay, let's see what she can come up with, right? I'm thankful for that because otherwise none of these things, nothing would matter Because they are able to see that it's all in service of the end customer and for them to grow and for the business to grow and for me to have that space to do that. Yeah, it's an important side lesson almost for anyone out there listening who is a leader or leads a team or wants to be a leader.
[26:37] You know, that's a really, really important ingredient in successful cultures, which is that. Because I could easily become frustrated, right? If I didn't have that space, if I didn't have that backing and support from my team leaders, from my product leaders, from the business leaders, it would be such a frustrating day to day. Then that will have a direct impact on the quality of the work that I do. So if I don't have the space to focus on the depth and traverse the depth and the breadth angle, if I'm forced to do only one thing, sure, I'll do it because, yeah, it's a paycheck. I will do it. But then it won't have the passion. and it won't have my full involvement, right? So it is the freedom to do it as well as to be able to enjoy what I do. So the environment and the culture really matters there. It matters a lot. And I think, I mean, again, as leaders, and I think when...
[27:30] As folks become new leaders, right, new managers and new leaders, there's always a learning curve. And it's not a natural state for a lot of folks. And I think we've all learned. But especially in building products, it's so cross-functional. It's so ambiguous. It's so learn and fail and learn again. And, you know, there's not one way of doing it perfectly, right? Right. And so if any kind of leader or manager comes in and says, do it this way and it'll work perfectly, we all know that's not going to work. So so having that ability to, you know, learn from your past, bring experiences in, make mistakes and learn from them and then do things differently, I think is a really, really important part. Not just about scaling, which is kind of the conversation today, but really just general product management. Right. So so that brings me to maybe one of my last questions to you is when you, you know, see an organization or you maybe you've gone into a team which didn't have any of these processes in place or didn't have the ability to scale. They hadn't really built that muscle yet.
[28:41] You know, what are some advice that you would give to a team like that? Because I'm sure there are folks out there listening that say this all sounds
[28:48] good, but our team doesn't do that well yet. What are some get started, you know, first step kind of things that you would advise a product team to get better at scaling products? products. This is a good one because, again, I'm the kind that identifies patterns and maybe there is something written in my fate that this person fits into these teams at this point in time. So this is like happening in my engineering days when I joined Credo Mobile, the team was going through a breakup into pods.
[29:24] And then they were like, hey, we need one pod focused on the new stuff. And then these existing pods need to keep the lights on. And I was in charge of that pod to keep the lights on, production support, stakeholder management. And I was an engineer at that time, but I was also a scrum master doing sprint planning. And then I joined Expedia. Same thing. The team was split into pods to focus on different areas. I'm like, okay, deja vu. And then again, I'm running sprint planning. I'm being a scrum master. And then I joined Dividend. Big team, split into pods to say, you focus here, you focus here. Right? They found you. What's going on here? Did I say something during the interview process? And then come join Peak. Same thing here. You have payments. You have this team. You have that team. So the breaking up of teams seems to be a natural evolution in any org once they get to a certain size. Because you have to retain the existing customer as well as go after the new business.
[30:18] It's always more important to retain an existing customer than go court a new one. Sure, we all want to expand markets, but everything falls apart if your existing customers leave you, right? So it seems to be that organic moment in a company's lifespan where that happens and somehow through some fate and they're all tall times. So coming back to your question, right, how can teams learn how to do this? I mean, we are product managers. We are all known for MVPs. As much as MVP gets a bad rap, it's like as long as you try something and you learn from it, And from it, an MVP is like so valuable a tool for you, right? So like it doesn't have to be a minimum viable product. It can be a minimum viable process. It can be a minimum viable project, right? So try it out because you want to... Earn that credibility. You want to show the fact that, hey, this is an experiment.
[31:12] Acknowledge that it's an experiment. Call it out for what it is, but be very clear about why you're doing it. What is the outcome you're looking for? How can you gauge? How can you measure whether you reach that outcome or not? And then that's how you show success, right? And then you make it a repeatable process because that's how you show value to your team, to your product team, to your company to say that, hey, I'm not wasting your time here, but I think there's really something here for us to look deeper into, right? So be it a process tweak that you want to make, because that's where the culture is important, right? You want to be in a culture that encourages, empowers you to try different things, to come up with suggestions, and take the team along with you,
[31:54] because no man is an island. Take the team along with you. And when it comes to MVPs, you're not building only MVPs. You still have the major existing stuff to take care of, existing projects to complete through, existing quarterly roadmap to go finish your roadmap items planned for the next quarter. None of those things come to a stop, right? So my suggestion to anybody wanting to try something new is make the case for it. Make the case for it. Make the pitch because we are PMs. We know how to apply product thinking to not just product, but to various other aspects. Apply the product thinking. Identify the problem that you're trying to solve, your suggestion for how to solve it, and then work with.
[32:40] Internal teams to to get some champions in there right because you're not going to be able to do it alone is there a an engineer that can work with you on the mvp is there a data science person that can help instrument the metrics for you to show uh the growth to show the impact i would say that's where like talking to others like these things are soft skills are such an important aspect of a pm's career.
[33:03] Like you have to lean on all those basics, soft skills, product thinking, measuring, measure twice, cut once, convincing somebody, going after the problem space, defining the problem statement. These are all like PM basics that you can apply to any area and make a case for something that you want to improve on. Because that's something you're passionate about and you want to showcase it and you firmly believe that this is like an unlock for the business. I would would say go for it, but you have to make sure that it's done in a way that doesn't upset the larger plan because you are still part of the larger team and you still have goals to go after with the rest of the team. It's such good advice. And I'm thinking it's just a perfect analogy of practicing
[33:49] either leveraging your product management skills, right? So for experienced product managers out there listening, just approach this as a problem you want to solve with your product skills. And for the more junior product managers out there, it's actually a really good simulation and a good practice to build, you know, keep building some of those product management skills that you need in the role. And, you know, it's a tad bit less risky because it's an internal kind of focusing thing. But to your point, it's all using product management skills. So I love that, that's really, really great advice. And I think the main point there.
[34:29] Is, you know, just get started, just go, go try. And I think, again, sometimes we get so intimidated by doing something or, or, or won't let it happen, or we don't know how to do it. But, you know, love your point about the MVP, just kind of get out there, you know, minimal vial process or, you know, project, right? Yeah, I think that's, I think that's awesome. So really, really amazing advice and conversation. I've loved our time together. Purni, thank you so much for sharing and your wisdom and the advice that you have and your stories, both successes and maybe not so much. I mean, we all learn from each other. So thank you so much, Purni, for being with me today. Thank you so much, JJ. This has been such a wonderful conversation. And I love your podcast. And I'm hoping that if there are other PMs listening to what I had to share and try it out, please reach out to me on LinkedIn. Give me feedback. I'm looking to get better, too. And I'm still trying to figure this out as I go along.
[35:27] But yeah, if there's anything that you have feedback on, please find me on LinkedIn and hit me up with your feedback. I'd love to hear. I'd love to learn. That's wonderful. And yes, we'll definitely share your contact information. And, you know, that was kind of my vision of Product Voices in the beginning, which was get all our unique and valuable voices together. So, you know, please reach out to Purni and connect and myself as well. So again, thank you so much for being with me. And thank you all for listening to Product Voices. Hope to see you on the next episode.
[36:16] Music.
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