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Episode 091
In this episode, we discuss the vital skills of listening and observing and how these can lead to success in product management. Guest Monika Murugesan, a seasoned product executive, advisor, mentor, and guest lecturer at Northwestern University, shares practical tips are shared for enhancing these skills, leading to informed decision-making and successful product development.
TRANSCRIPT
[0:39] So excited to have you on this episode. This is going to be a really great conversation about something that we don't talk a lot about in terms of product content out there. We know how important it is, but I don't think we spend enough time on some of the things that ultimately lead to success. We focus so much on frameworks and process and this methodology and this way of doing something, a new technique or what have you. All of that's important in product management, of course, but there are some things that underlie our success. And that to me is something that I have taken upon myself to talk about more. Some of the stuff in my book is about those kinds of skills and truths of product managers, as I call them. And this conversation is similar to that. I think it kind of lies in that vein.
[1:31] And I think it's going to be a really, really important important conversation. We're going to talk about how listening and observing as a product manager will help you be successful. So listening and observing, again, two really critical skills that you know, we do every day, hopefully, but we don't talk a lot about. So we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about how to get better at that, what that means, how we can, how we can improve ourselves as product managers by just adhering a little bit more to listening and observing those around us, especially our customers.
[2:05] So I've got an amazing guest with me today. I'm so excited. Monika Murugesan is a product executive. She's been in the energy industry for a long time. She's led multiple product organizations and strategy organizations. She provides advisory and mentoring on product and business operations. She's just phenomenal. She's also a guest lecturer at Northwestern University. diversity. Monica, thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation with me today. Thank you, JJ. It's a pleasure being here with you.
[2:36] So let's just talk about that again. I always kind of like to set the stage in these conversations, listening and observing as a product manager. Obviously that, you know, is somewhat self-explanatory, but let's talk about it a little bit. Let's dig into that a little bit. So when we say, you know, to succeed as a product manager, you have to be good at listening and observing. What does that mean to you? What does that mean to you in the context of product management?
[3:01] You know, when we talk about product management, right, like we are not talking about a defined standard set of skill sets. It's not like defined, like a traditional role that has been existing in the industry. Product management is all about evolving. It's the person is evolving. They are evolving the product they are responsible for. And in turn, they are bringing the company also to that evolution, which means that you are continuously in that learning phase. And how do you learn when you are in the growth mindset, right? Like that's when you are learning. And to be in that growth mindset, you have to be constantly listening and observing what's happening, what's happening with your executives, what's happening within your company, what's happening with your engineering team.
[3:51] Most importantly, what's happening with your customers. And to do that, that's where I brought in these two skills, like listen and observe, because those are the two key things for you to continuously learn what's happening with your customers. And if you know what's really happening with your customers, that's going to help you with your product design, with your product definition, with your roadmap, everything that's going to take you further. of those.
[4:18] Yeah, I love that. And so I want to take it really practical here. So listen and observe. How have you taught yourself and taught others on your team how to do that in a very intentional way? Like, are there techniques or are there things that, you know, because let's be honest, everyone sitting out there listening probably says, I listen and observe every day, but we don't actually do it that well, right?
[4:43] And we don't know that we don't do it that well. So how How can we be intentional about it? How can we, you know, are there triggers or techniques or something that we can know we can do to make it part of our DNA, to make it part of everything that we do, to make sure that we really are good at listening and observing? Yeah, that's a really good point, right? We do say that, yes, I am listening and I'm observing, but are we really doing that?
[5:08] That self-reflection is very important. And let me tell you about my own personal experience. When I first went into the product management path, we always record our customer interviews, right? And when you play back, I listen to myself and I kind of did a self-reflection on, am I interrupting them when they are speaking? Am I giving them enough time to answer their questions or am I rushing them through because I've got only 30 minutes with them, right? And also, out of that 30 minutes of my interview time, how many minutes did I occupy versus the customers?
[5:46] All those self-reflection helped me think about.
[5:51] Am I the one speaking? Because that platform is for them to speak, right? And giving that time for them to speak in, because the whole purpose of a customer interview is to hear what they are saying, to listen to it again later, to clearly understand their path, their journey, their pain points. And that kind of is more intentional way of, I understood if I'm giving the platform to them or am I interrupting versus taking the time?
[6:22] Because that is not the purpose of the customer interviews, right?
[6:26] And the same thing comes to observing as well. When you are visiting customers, of course, your phone will ring because you're out of office. You will have other interruptions. But being mindful of, okay, I've got this half day with this customer. I'm going going to make the most out of it. I'm going to turn off my calls or
[6:49] messages or email pings and totally be here with this person or with this team. Observe what they're doing. Observe their day-to-day activities. Observe how they are using my software. Observe how they are doing their activities from start to end and where is my product helping them in this journey and what are they struggling with. And even if you miss because you had to take a call, You know, it happens. It happens to everyone, especially when you're out of office. That's when you get a very important call that you have to step out to take it. Right. You may miss something up. So being aware of that, that this time, you know, everybody's busy. They have given half a day or half, you know, one hour, whatever time they have given a slot for you.
[7:34] Being respectful of that and being there to observe them is very important. So that is where I would say all my team members to be present there, right? That brings into that both growth mindset and being present mindset that this
[7:50] time is for them and let's dedicate our energy towards them. I think that's really important. And on both those points, and I think listening and observing go hand in hand, but in many ways, they're also distinct in, in, in the, in our work in product management. So for example, as you were saying, you know, recording your customer interviews and your customer conversations really, really important. So always do that if, if you have the ability to. Most customers will allow, you know, agree to, to do that. You most likely have NDAs and other things. So, so for the most part, customers will, will allow that, but, but of course get their agreement and And then record those sessions as much as possible. Not only so that you can go back and remember and share with others what customers said, but I love, love your idea of watching yourself and reflecting on your own abilities.
[8:41] And, you know, if you're interrupting, if you're, you know, not asking questions or probing questions or what have you. So that's a really great point. And then the observing, you know, the truth is customers can't always articulate what they need. And when they are articulating something to us, it's very much often in solution terms. Like, I want your product to have this feature. And, well, maybe they don't need that feature. Maybe they need something else. And it's our job as product managers to interpret and extrapolate, you know, information. And sometimes...
[9:15] Listening to what they say is important, but also just observing with our own eyes to your point of how they're using the product, how they're not using the product, how the rest of their environment impacts their lives. I think that's a really, really good way to do it. And to have the ability to do that and go on site or to physically watch your customers and observe your customers is a really, really good point. I want to dig a little there. Do you have any examples of, you know, being able to or or or successfully being able to have your customers agree to being on site with them, whether it's for interviews or for, you know, true observation? What are some advice on how to engage with customers in that way? Business customers, you kind of think maybe they'll let you come to their office. Consumer customers, who knows where we're going to do that. But any thoughts on that or advice for others on how to really get your customers to engage with you?
[10:20] That's a very important aspect of product management, right? You cannot design what's the next best product for your company and your market by sitting at your desk. So travel, being with your customers, observing their day-to-day activities is a very important aspect of this role. And the first thing you may hear is there is no budget, no travel. Send them a survey. Let them fill out a survey. Let me tell you, that is not going to work because people are busy. They may ignore your request to fill out a survey or, you know, if you're a very important supplier, then they may fill out a survey, but they may be too lazy to provide a thoughtful answer because they are busy. They want to provide a quick survey and send that survey back to you.
[11:10] They may not know what exactly a question means because you're not there in person to explain what the question means. You want to keep it concise. So you're probably putting together, you know, like a sentence or two of each question. And they may not clearly understand what you ask. So their answers may not really reflect what you expect or what you're actually supposed to get. Right.
[11:31] So definitely a survey is not the way to go. And you know definitely sales team would be a great channel to engage your customers having that good rapport with your sales team members finding the way to build that rapport also with your customers is important for product managers because this is not a one-time visit and forget about it right like if you are working on a brand new product you want to be engaged with them so So you repeatedly get your feedback on whether your strategy is correct, whether your design is correct, what type of changes they would like to see. All those things happen with that repeated ongoing conversation.
[12:15] So definitely having them involved right from the beginning. And like you mentioned, having NDA with them and then involving them right from the beginning. Not all your customers, right? Like pick your top 10 or if not top 10, top five, depending on how many feedback you would would like to receive, engage them from the beginning on the strategy you would like to move and get their thoughtful feedback on if that's the right thing for where they see the market is going and keep them involved. You know, most of the companies are happy to be part of this because they feel they're special because you are involving them right from the beginning, not just delivering a product and asking them how it is or use it and provide me a feedback.
[12:56] This is more, you know, like a respectful, a special position you're putting them in, hey, I think of you as my board, customer board, right? Customer advisory board. Be part of this conversation. And, you know, most of the customers I have approached with that.
[13:15] You know, from the beginning being part of my strategy, they are absolutely excited about being that special customer who would be helpful in my strategic direction. I completely agree with all of that. I think it's just really good advice to, I mean, customers want to have better solutions to their problems, right? And so we can help them with that. And so to take advantage of that, I think, is really important. So, you know, one thing that we talk about a lot in product management, and I think it's similar to this in terms of.
[13:54] You know, something we think we do or we think we have, but we're not quite sure if we do it really well. And I also think it ties quite nicely into this is empathy, right? Having empathy for our stakeholders, our partners, our customers. You know, we just simply have to be empathetic to their surroundings, to their issues in order to then, you know, help find good solutions for So tell me a little bit about how you think empathy plays into this and in listening and observing and using those skills and those behaviors to be successful.
[14:31] Yeah, absolutely. You know, empathy is a very important skill as humans to be in any role. And I'm going to highlight here why it is a very critical skill for product managers, right? Because product managers are responsible for the future revenue of the company, their current revenue of the company, but without any positional authority. So if you hear something from the CEO, this person has a positional authority. So the team is going to go through what they can do, how they can rearrange things and get things done for the CEO. But when it comes from a product manager, they do not have a positional authority, whether it's a product manager or anyone in the product management career chain. But they need to influence the team members still to get things done because product manager is that one person who is pretty much touching every aspect of the company, right? From whether it's finance or working with executives, working with engineering team, marketing team, sales team, you name it, they work with everyone because this is one position that touches all aspects of an entire company.
[15:37] And they are going to work with everyone without any positional authority. And that is where the influential skills comes in. And how do you influence people, right? Like you have heard about leading with the head, heart, and hands, right? And empathy is where I see this head and heart coming together, right? Your head is going to say, what is the right thing to do? What is the right move to make? What is the right product to launch? The strategy of the directional strategy. strategy, and then the heart is where that empathy also ties in with this to say, when I'm talking to the CFO for funding, how do I influence the CFO? When I talk to my engineering design team leaders, how do I influence them with using that, what is influencing them? What is going to move them, right?
[16:22] Because you speak a different language when you talk to a CFO versus when you talk to your R&D leader. You exactly do this something different when you're talking to a sales leader versus when when you're talking to a marketing leader. So that is where I see empathy is very important. And this is purely from the inward focusing, right? Like, again, empathy plays a huge role when we talk about customers, and we'll get to that. But this is just purely from being a successful product manager without any positional authority. How do you influence everyone? From giving you the funding to taking your product to the market, launching your product, it, everything is happening and you are influencing them with your empathy on what is going to move them, what is going to get them excited about this product because I'm excited about it. You know, one of the things that I have found that is a real marker of success or, you know, being a successful product manager is that ability to.
[17:23] Build those relationships with stakeholders, and that takes empathy, and then communicate appropriately to the various stakeholders. Again, it takes empathy. It takes listening, observing what matters to them, you know, what level of detail you need to provide, what level of information. And so I think all of this just plays so important, you know, is so important to these human skills that, again, lay the foundation for being a successful product manager. So, you know, when you think about being really good at listening to your customers, observing your customers, leveraging your empathy to figure it all out, you know, all of the things that we've been talking about. Out, but then are there, are there some ways that you've found that are, um, that lead to success in terms of gathering that information and then bringing it back to our teams, right? So it's, it's kind of the, oh, great. We're, we're doing a really good job of being intentional, listening, observing, we're getting good feedback, but then we have to tie that into our processes and into to our team to make something of it. Any techniques or just advice that you have when we get this good information, what do we then do with it with our teams?
[18:43] Yeah, well, definitely balancing is important, right? That's important for product managers. And that kind of comes in when you're talking about empathy too, right? Because you're going to get these features or upgrades, grades, whatever feedback you've been requesting, you're going to get that from all directions.
[19:04] You're going to get it from your internal teams as well. And you're going to get it from different customers from different geographical places.
[19:13] And they're all going to be a little bit different. And that's where having that right balance of what am I going to balance with? You know, do I go with a tactical request? Do I go with my strategic long-term request? How do I have an informed decision is important. And that's where that listening and observing comes in, right? Because if you have listened to your customers, really, you can get to the bottom of, do they really want it or do they really need it? Are they asking because of our competitor product has it or they really need this to solve the problem? Is this the right solution or maybe they are kind of putting a band-aid on something else that we should be solving? So all those things come in and this gives you that decision-making power because you have the right data to make an informed decision and balancing all this request. Because that's one of the key challenges for any product managers. I have thousands of requests, but I have only limited resources. How do I use my limited resources, but still balance these thousands of requests, right? And this is definitely that having the right data will provide you.
[20:27] Confidence that you're making an informed decision and provide you a better balancing act on whether you are doing pure tactical or pure strategic, or am I doing a good combination of the both? The better we are at gathering that data, and it means it's going to be better
[20:44] data, right? Better feedback, better information. And then the better we get at communicating that across, the more confidence we have in ourselves and the more confidence our stakeholders have in us, you know, and that, again, there's just this, there's this underlying current of confidence, and that's going to help everything.
[21:03] Our teammates are going to know that we did the right thing, we're doing the right things to gather the right information to help us both tactically and strategically. And I think, I think that is so important. And really, you know, again, we as product managers, a lot of us are engineers, and a lot of us are just very data driven people by nature. And some of these things are somewhat subjective. There's not this quantifiable, you know, you do A, B, and C, and you'll be, you know, perfect at D. You know, that's just not how it works, right? And as you started the conversation, it's, there's not this perfect skill set that if you build it exactly like someone else, it's, it's going to, you know, make you successful. There, there are some subjective human skills here involved that, you know, don't have a perfect, you know, empirical data framework behind them. Um, but done right, it's really, really clear how much more fun, how much more successful, how much more efficient we just get in our, you know, product management job. So I love, I love how you brought that around to kind of balancing and,
[22:09] and making that, um, making that a part. Um, I think my final question for you will just be like, what other.
[22:17] What resources or, you know, content or other advice that do you have for folks who buy into this? They know they want to get better at being very intentional, at listening, observing, being empathetic, being curious. They want to get the right data into their processes and into their decisions. You know, what resources have
[22:37] you found that helped? Books or podcasts or just, you know, reflection? Anything at all? Any other advice? Definitely be on the growth mindset, right? Like do not go in without that growth mindset, right? Like the way I look at it is once you embrace empathy and you are intentional about I'm going to observe and I'm going to listen, I'm not going to be distracted. Distracted, you are letting go of that arrogance that I know what I am going to build. And you are putting that totally aside and you're going with a complete open mind that I'm going to listen to them and I'm going to observe what their problems are really. And that totally puts you in that growth mindset and that learning mode for the customers. The one thing I want to highlight here is, you know, when you walk into a customer's I have five steps I tell my team is totally put aside your judgment, right? Like, oh, this customer, they're going to demand this, this, and this. They are going to be always demanding. They're never happy with my solution. You know, put aside all those judgment. Go in with a fresh mindset.
[23:37] Ask questions. Have a set of questions. Ask good questions. I think of it as like, ask why multiple times. Do not stop with, why do you want this? Go with, okay, why do you need this? Okay, why did you say that? Why did you? So go with the follow-up why. So it's more like ask why five times to get to the bottom of why we really need that. Active listening, right? Like listen, do not interrupt. Save your questions for when they're done. Active listening. And when you walk out of the meeting, have a clear understanding. Okay, did this solve the purpose of why I came in here? Did I understand the problem statement here? year. Come out of the meeting with a clear understanding. And once you're out of a meeting, when you're designing your product or when you're designing your, putting your roadmap together, put yourself in their shoes. Okay. So if I am in their shoes, is this going to solve my problem?
[24:33] So these are the five steps I tell my product managers, right?
[24:36] Like once you have that, you're intentional about it. So if you kind of check these five items, you're kind of going with that open mindset with empathy, that I'm doing the right thing for my team and my product because I'm actively listening to my customers. And this goes with what you said earlier, JJ, because once you have the right data, It is much better for you to influence anyone from your sales team to your design team, because you're going to tell them, I talked to X, Y, and Z from these companies. And this is exactly what I had, what I observed. And this is exactly what they would be happy to get from us. Right. And that data, where is the data coming from? Because that's what is going to help you influence them. Because you are, you observe the data with empathy and you're going to use that
[25:27] empathy to influence them. So it is going to help you both at the customer side as well as internally to influence all the stakeholders, the decision makers to provide you the right support.
[25:40] Yeah, such great advice and such a fabulous conversation. I love talking about these types of topics with experts like you because, again, there's so many hard skills that we have to have in product management, and we tend to focus so keenly on those. And again, that's a great thing, and we need to master those. But these types of skills, these types of behaviors are so, so important. And frankly, you know, you can be the best in the world at all of the hard skills and not know these, and you're not going to get very far in this role. So I love having these conversations. Monika, thank you so very much for joining me, for sharing your wisdom and your insights. I've loved the conversation. So thanks for being on Product Voices. Thank you, JJ. And thanks all for joining us on Product Voices.
[26:48] Music.