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Episode 098
In this episode of Product Voices, I speak with Cristina Crespo, VP of Product at Paytient, about the crucial role of empathy in product management.
Cristina defines empathy, differentiates it from sympathy, and emphasizes its impact on creating user-centered products. We discuss how empathy correlates with business success through frameworks like the product-led growth flywheel, and she shares strategies for leveraging research to enhance user experiences.
Christina also highlights the importance of fostering an empathetic workplace culture and the need for self-empathy among product managers.
This conversation illustrates that embedding empathy in product processes is key to success.
RESOURCES
Cristina's Bio:
Cristina Crespo is a results-driven product management leader with over 12 years of experience, currently serving as Vice President of Product at Paytient. She has excelled in both consulting and startup environments, holding impactful roles at frog design and Cognizant Technology Solutions. Cristina is known for taking a human-centered approach to product management, launching products that solve real human problems and make a positive impact on people, businesses, and the world. She holds a Bachelor's degree from the University of Notre Dame and a Master's in Medical Anthropology from Boston University School of Medicine.
TRANSCRIPT
[0:03] Welcome to Product Voices, a podcast where we share valuable insights and useful
[0:08] resources to help us all be great in product management. Visit the show's website to access the resources discussed on the show, find more information on our fabulous guests, or to submit your product management question to be answered on our special Q&A episodes. That's all at ProductVoices.com. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. Now, here's our host, JJ Rorie, CEO of Great Product Management. Hello and welcome to Product Voices. I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. It's something that we talk a little bit about in product management. You'll certainly hear some things about empathy and you'll see some articles written, but I don't think we really do it justice. I think it's such an important topic that I'm thrilled to have an entire episode on it. I'm thrilled to have my guest here to talk about this, you know, power of empathy in product management, what that means, what that means in the function itself and the craft that we do.
[1:15] Also, what it means for our customers and for ourselves. And so really excited about this conversation, the power of empathy in product management. So with me today is Cristina Crespo. So she's a results-driven product management leader with over 12 years of experience. She's currently vice president of product at Paytient.
[1:32] She's been both consulting in startup environments, excelled in both of those, which can be quite different. So I love the breadth of that experience. So she's been at places like Frog Design and Cognizant Technology Solutions. She's really kind of centered her career and herself and her teams around human-centered approach and really trying to make products and put products out into the world that have a positive impact on people, businesses, the world itself. So that's something I've always loved about Christina. And as I've known her and followed her and gotten to know her, that's a really, really big part of her and the products she puts out there.
[2:09] She's got a bachelor's degree from University of Notre Dame, go Irish, and a master's in medical anthropology from Boston University School of Medicine. Ooh, I could talk all episode about that degree. That's very cool. So, Cristina, thank you so much for being here with me. Awesome. It's so great to be here with you. Thank you for having me on your podcast. You bet. It's gonna be fun.
[2:28] Okay, so maybe sounds simple, or even kind of really straightforward. But let's talk about empathy and what it is. Like what, what is empathy? We throw that around so often that I think sometimes we need to take a step back and define it and center ourselves on what what empathy is in the first place. So what's empathy? Yeah, I agree. I think it's important to really understand the root of the word and how we can define it so that then we can get into how can we use it in our roles as product managers.
[3:03] So empathy is a human capacity to understand other people's feelings and needs. At its core, it's the ability to walk in someone else's shoes and understand the world from their perspective. A lot of times we tend to confuse empathy and sympathy.
[3:23] I read a lot about both of these and sometimes people can confuse both of these, but these are very different emotions and actions, really. Empathy is really the ability to listen, to understand, to understand someone else's emotions, someone else's problems and what they're going through so that you can have a shared perspective of the problem and of the situation. And that's a little bit different than sympathy. Sympathy is sharing concerns, feeling sorry for someone, providing emotional support. For example, I may see someone crying in the middle of the street and feel sympathy for them and not know anything about their perspective and why they're crying and what they're going through. And so you can feel sympathy and share concerns. And sympathy can also build into empathy. If you really, you know, feel with someone, you can really gain more empathy about their problem and have a better understanding. But it doesn't necessarily have to, you know, grow really from sympathy into empathy. And so really, it's about understanding problems and its ability to walk in someone else's shoes and see the world from their perspective.
[4:36] It's so important. And thank you for that kind of outlining that, because I think, again, we tend to throw around a lot of concepts and words and product management and assume everybody has the exact same understanding of what that is. And so I always think it's important to kind of get us back to that. So it actually leads me to my next question, because as I'm listening to you kind of really define that, it connects all the dots, right? Right. It says, oh, gosh, that's exactly what we need in product management and as product managers.
[5:08] Right. But but let's talk about it. Why is empathy so important for us as product folks? I am very biased here, but I do think that empathy is probably the number one skill to really develop as a product manager, because your job as a product manager is to understand your users and to really understand the problems that they have. What are their pain points? What are their experiences? What are their desires? And the better you understand the problems, the better you're able to design solutions and build solutions to meet their needs. And so in order for us to design and build products that are not only adopted, but they're well-loved by users, you have to really understand and solve real human needs.
[5:54] And so that deep understanding that you have for your users allows you to attract more users, ability to retain your users as well. So if you really think about what is your goal as a product manager, your job is to really create a solution that people love so that you can achieve your business outcomes, whatever those outcomes may be. And so I think it's like the most critical skill to really build, really like tapping into like that psyche and being able to design for and with your users. Yeah. And I think it's one of my next questions was going to be, and I want to continue the conversation through this thread, if you will, is how does empathy drive success or drive growth? Right. Because at the end of the day, we're business people and we're responsible for bringing business results. And a lot of times when we think about or talk about these softer type skills, if you will, empathy and, you know, relationship building and all the different things that maybe are a little squishier than, you know, technical knowledge or what have you.
[6:59] It's hard for some people to connect the dots between that skill and results. And so I love what you were saying about that empathy drives customer understanding. Customer understanding drives products that customers love and keep using. And guess what that does? That brings business results, right? So I think that's what we need as product people and then especially as product leaders, right? You're a product leader who really gets this. But sometimes product leaders are very much business focused and they forget that there's a lot underneath that hood. But talk to me a little bit more about your experience and your thoughts on empathy driving success and driving growth.
[7:38] How do you see that happen? And also, how do you get other people to buy into that? So one approach that I like to use is there's something called the product-led growth flywheel. And it's how do you move a person through activation, adoption.
[7:55] Adoration of your product, and then becoming an advocate of your product. And the way you get to product-led growth is really moving people faster and faster through that flywheel. And so if I think about, like, how do I use empathy in product management, it's really understanding, you know, how do we drive that awareness for users? How do we, you know, as they're evaluating the product, how do you really explain the product in a way that's going to resonate with your target persona? Yeah. It's how do you move them from evaluating to becoming a first-time user of your product, that beginner, and then becoming a regular use of your product. You're really adopting it. They like it. It's solving a need. They're adopting the product. And then most importantly, now that you've adopted a product, how do you become an advocate of your product? product. And so those are really the people that are sharing a lot of feedback with you, that they are referring their friends to use their product and their family members because they love it so much. It's solving such a big problem for them. They want others to use it too because it's really solving a big need. And so that's one approach that I like to use is really understanding the entire journey that a user goes through as they're evaluating, as they're first using the product and they're learning about it and how it works and then becoming a regular use of it. How do you really solve the biggest pain points and the biggest questions that people have so that you can move them faster and faster through that process?
[9:22] And the way you really get there is you do research.
[9:26] And this could be qualitative and quantitative research. But being able to look at your data and see like, you know, what is your onboarding drop loss look like? How many people are entering, you know, your onboarding flow and how many people are completing versus dropping off? Where are they dropping off? Do you see commonalities in that experience? After they've created an account with your product, have they used your product?
[9:53] And if they haven't, you know, how do you move them? How do you better understand why? What questions do they have? Why are they not using your product? What's preventing them? What concerns do they have? What anxiety do they have about using your product so that you can solve those questions and really kind of engage with them so that they, you know, use that product. And then second, now that they use it, um, gather feedback on that experience. That's how you learn, you know, how that experience went. Um, and then you look at trends and kind of their usage and their behavior using your product. Um, and so you can look at your data and have a better sense of like, what are the moments of delight? What are the pain points in the experience? And then really hone in on those like pain points, right. Um, and really understand, you know, what are the challenges that people have? Like that, the sad face, right? The anger and the experience. Like, how do you like turn that anger into happiness? How do you turn that sadness into a positive emotion?
[10:49] And you can do that also by doing research. And so reach out to your users and kind of walk them through the experience and gather their feedback. Ask them to talk out loud as they're using the product so that you better understand what questions they have and gather that feedback continuously. This isn't really a once-and-done activity. It should be a regular pattern in your product management processes where you are continuously tapping into your users and really understanding their experiences. And they'll also guide you as well. They'll tell you, you know, our users are very honest and frank with their feedback. You're going to get the real truth about how they feel about your product, and you'll use that, right? Use that to inspire new ideas, and you can also co-create with your users as well. I really do believe that ideas come from literally anywhere. It doesn't have to come from the product manager. It can come from anywhere in the company, but also your users. You can involve them in that co-ideation process as well. And so...
[11:49] Those are three different strategies that I think I just talked about and I just talked about a few, but you've got the product like growth flywheel and moving people from being kind of beginners of your product and getting them activated, getting them to adopt a door and then advocate for your product, but also looking at quantitative data and looking at how people are using your product, where are they dropping off? What are kind of those areas of friction in the experience? And then lastly, qualitative research, actually reaching out to users and gathering their feedback on the experience. I love having those very tangible examples and frameworks in some cases on, you know, how to leverage empathy, how to make that a part of our work streams. Because I think that's one of the places where folks kind of fall off, if you will, or again, kind of don't connect the dots or understand that this important but maybe, quote unquote, soft skill really directly connects to hard results. And so I love seeing those and hearing those very tangible, tactical types of things.
[13:00] And so, you know, again, one of the things that I think that folks have a hard time with, I don't think anybody has a difficulty believing that empathy is important, right? Or empathy is important for product management. I think everybody gets that. I don't think there'd be, if we were in a room of 100 people, I'm sure everyone would be nodding their heads or say, yes, I agree.
[13:20] But how do you become empathetic, right? Like some people are just naturally that way, I think. But but are there are there markers or identifiers or or, you know, something that that shows that a product manager or someone on a product team kind of already has that level of empathy or are there ways that we can build that in ourselves? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. So I think that ultimately it's about curiosity.
[13:49] And so if you look at the PMs on your team, you can evaluate like how much, how curious are they about users and how they're using the product? How much qualitative research are they conducting? How much data analysis are they doing to really understand that customer experience? So you know when a product manager is empathetic, you know, because they have that like innate level of curiosity where they want to explore. And they're not comfortable just launching a product and then hoping for the best, right? And not coming back and seeing like, you know, I had a hypothesis. Let me validate that hypothesis, right? Did it succeed? Did it fail? And so you, you know, coming back and having that continuous feedback loop of like, I launched and I learned, and then I kind of evolved and I evolve and I evolve. And so as a product manager, you're constantly evolving along with the market, along with your users as well. There's always a shifting market dynamic.
[14:53] And, you know, you have to always kind of like learn what's happening and how do you really solve those needs. And so it's that curiosity and that ability to validate assumptions and be able to be very comfortable like pivoting, right? I think, you know, I read recently that somewhere like 90% of experiments fail and how that's like, you know, how that can feel as a product manager, but like pivoting that emotion to like not really failure, but like what did I learn from that?
[15:22] And how are users making decisions about your product and how they use it? And so number one, I think is like that curiosity, a curiosity to learn, that curiosity to validate other things that you can do to become an empathetic product manager. I know I talked about qualitative research a little bit, but you can conduct moderated studies that is like scheduling one-on-one sessions with people in your target population or your current users and be able to have open-ended interviews with them where you ask open-ended questions, get them to talk out loud, and really kind of explain how they feel, how they make decisions. You can also launch unmoderated studies. And this could be, there's a lot of tools where you can launch a study and then within a few hours get some responses back. And that's usually like getting feedback on a set of questions, like a survey, but it could also be feedback on a prototype that you may build, a concept design that you're just trying to pressure test as well.
[16:20] And so it's doing that qualitative research. One thing that my teams know that I love is, you know, it could be called a service blueprint or an end-to-end journey map as well. But it's that picture, that end-to-end picture of your customer's journey and their experience from beginning all the way to end. And just mapping out all the different steps in the process. How are they making decisions? what's happening within the system you're building, but also outside of the system that you're building? How are you engaging them from an, you know, any communications perspective, be it push notifications or SMS or email? You know, what are all the things that you're doing across the journey to really engage your users?
[17:06] And then what is the entirety of that experience? That holistic view allows you to take a step back and be able to see the highs and lows in the in the experience? What are those functional highs and lows or emotional highs and lows in the experience? And so after you've created that end to end map, I really love to put like smiley face, sad face and angry face in that journey. And then, you know, really hone in again on those like areas of friction and the experience. And so taking that bird's eye view, looking at it from a systemic perspective allows you to like really see the big areas of like problem and the experience, and then using that to prioritize.
[17:50] And so as a product manager, we're doing research and then we are trying to come up with ideas and opportunities. And then our job is the toughest part of the job is probably how do you prioritize what you do next? You can't do it all. And so how do you prioritize it? Right. And so you're looking there's so many different methods to prioritize your roadmap, but really understanding like the outcomes of the company, but also like value. You know, what are the things that are going to develop, deliver value for your customers?
[18:19] And that's like an important way to prioritize. Obviously, you weigh that against effort. And, you know, there could be other ways, other metrics that you use also to evaluate. But you're really taking in, you know, what do we need to do from a business perspective? And then what is the value that a feature delivers?
[18:36] Use that to really prioritize your roadmap. And you can prioritize by really honing in on your, you know, the experience that you want to create and the challenges that are in your product journey. And so if you know that 60% of your users are dropping off in a key moment of the experience, maybe that's the area that you focus, right? If you know that your conversion is low and you want to be able to optimize conversion, then how do you move people faster and faster through that process? After someone's created an account, if they haven't used your product, what can you do to really create a first-time use experience to move them faster to use your product? And so like really looking at those outcomes, looking at the experience and what the challenges are, that's how you can really prioritize opportunities that deliver value and ultimately a big impact for your company and your users too. And I think one thing that I think is important too is like, you know, sometimes when we prioritize opportunities, sometimes we want to think big in terms of that experience, but also think small, right? What are some things that you can test small to kind of get a better sense of the experience? How can you validate smaller? How can you validate faster? So that then you can like use that to like launch into like more strategic opportunities or like bigger bets too.
[19:55] And so I think like you can always be learning as you go and you can learn also with kind of a small thing that you build in your experience and see, does that move the needle? Does that help me achieve my business outcomes? Yeah, I'm such a big fan of the service blueprint or the journey mapping.
[20:14] Sometimes it's not necessarily exactly the same thing, but roughly for the purpose of this conversation, let's kind of talk of them together. But because exactly as you say, we can see every point along the way. And sometimes we get so close to a product or an experience that we miss some of the little things and the big things. And that forces us to see every single little bit along the way.
[20:39] And that to the last point. Point, one of the things that I've seen and I want to talk to you about is, you know, how do you turn empathy into an organizational function or culture element, right? And so, again, empathy is a very human feeling and skill, but companies need that too, or at least to connect the dots behind that. And I think your thoughts on prioritization and how we can use it kind of or harness the empathy that we've had for that company culture, if you will, or even, you know, the work streams. And I think that's how you play that in. But I really, really liked that one last point that you made about the look small sometimes, because you never know what's keeping that user or that group of users or that segment.
[21:33] Persona, et cetera, from using it or from, you know, going from activation to usage, et cetera, et cetera. And we very often think it's a big, horrible thing, right? Like they would love our product if it weren't for this big glaring thing. Well, sometimes it's very small to us, but in their minds, that's all that it was needed. So I love kind of the balance of looking across the blueprint.
[21:56] Across every touch point, of course, find the big gaps, but also there may be some really small things there. And I think that's a really good way to infuse empathy in our company. But do you have any other thoughts there? Are there other ways that from a company perspective, whether that's Workstream or Cultures or what have you, that, you know, we can increase our corporate empathy, if you will? I really do believe that ideas come from anywhere. And so I think it's important to continue to engage the company in kind of building that empathy for the entire company. That helps you align the rest of the organization and other teams with the broader vision.
[22:41] And so I think if you've conducted research and you've identified some really interesting insights, I don't think you should keep that to yourself. I think you should socialize that with the company.
[22:52] So getting into the habit of like sharing those insights and those learnings is really important, be they small, be they big. I think it's important to share with others, like what you're seeing and what you're learning. We did this recently with a big qualitative research project that we launched and we gathered the perspectives of you know older adults and how you know what is their experience getting medications and for a new product that we're building and we shared those insights not only with our clients but also the company and it's been amazing like not only are people like wow like thinking of other ideas and other opportunities that they hadn't even thought about before. And these are things that are maybe outside of your scope from product, outside of the things that you can really control and affect change in. But you're really socializing that and kind of creating those ripple effects within the entire organization. Maybe other teams, maybe customer service takes that insight and changes maybe how they engage with users based on those learnings or maybe marketing teams use that to really communicate the value to your product from an outside perspective. And so it's been pretty impactful for our teams to kind of hear these insights that we've gathered from research. And then just, it's really cool to see like where they take it next. You know, how do they use that to like create like new processes or experiences? And so I think like number one, I think is sharing that feedback with the entire company.
[24:20] And then also engaging in cross-functional ideation.
[24:24] I love to have like concept jams or ideation sessions. And that's basically the concept is you take a problem and then you have people like ideate ideas. And I really believe that you have, when you have a diverse team coming up with ideas, your ideas are stronger and you can create a really cool mashup of concepts too. And so when I create or I facilitate ideation sessions, I love to bring in people from across the company. It could be sales. It could be marketing. It could be account management. It could be support. It could be engineering. Like bring in others into the process of coming up with ideas and solving problems. You'd be really surprised what concepts come out of those sessions. Sessions.
[25:11] And then once you come up with ideas, also engage the company in cross-functional decision-making.
[25:20] So being able to engage others in the process of prioritizing opportunities and initiatives can be pretty impactful as well. Because, again, people are looking at it from different lenses, and you might be, again, surprised by some of the challenges that other functions are struggling with, and how an opportunity can also directly impact their metrics and their challenges that they're faced with as well. So at the end of the day, it's a win for the company, not just like a team or a department. It could be like really impactful across the entire company. And I think the last thing that I'll say in terms of like, how do you create that culture of empathy for an organization is really around rallying around your key metrics.
[26:04] A lot of teams use a North Star metric but you being able to share those insights from research helps you rally the company on what you're solving for and why it's important. And so the more you do that, the more you build that culture of empathy and everyone's just rallying around the same challenges and the same vision for your product. And I think that if any of these strategies resonate with anyone that's listening to the podcast, I urge you to try them. Try them small. With different teams, and then you'll be able to see kind of the impact of, you know, bringing everyone into that ideation, into that research, into that decision-making process. I love that.
[26:50] I think, you know, my last question for you is one that doesn't get, really doesn't get talked enough about enough in product. And it's interesting, and I loved that you said, as we began our conversation that empathy is probably the most important skill of a product manager.
[27:11] And I would probably agree with that. I think one of the things when I wrote my book, Immutable, The Five Truths of Great Product Managers, a lot of people said, why is empathy not one of those fives, right? And I said, I think it's embedded in some of those, but I think, but it's good feedback and it's actually probably true. Maybe the second version will be that, the next five. But I do think talk about empathy in the book in the context of empathy for our teammates and in the section around relationship building with our stakeholders and our partners, et cetera. So that's my final question for you today is kind of how do we, that's one thread, like empathy for our coworkers and others, right? Like how do we embed that in ourselves as coworkers? But also, and maybe more importantly, because product management is such a hard job, like we're serving others, we're supposed to show empathy for others, you know, it's all about others, not ourselves, even though we've got all the responsibility.
[28:16] And I don't mean that in a dramatic or bad way. But that's sometimes what it feels like, right. And so, so I think that burnout's real. And I think that, you know.
[28:25] Kind of the pressure of the job is hard and real for a lot of people. So talk to me a little bit about your thoughts around having empathy for ourselves, right? And maybe that flows into empathy for others on our team as well, but empathy for ourselves and how do we embrace ourselves and really, you know, understand what we're going through. As simple as that sounds, sometimes we don't do that. So what do you think about having empathy for ourselves and how that can help? Yeah, I think this is an important topic because product management is a really hard profession. It's a really fulfilling profession because you are, again, like understanding problems and actively solving them and then being able to see the impact of, you know, the solution that you ideated and how that's helping someone meet their needs and aspirations. So it's a very, very fulfilling role, but it's also very demanding.
[29:25] We have a lot of different competing priorities as product managers. It's high, a lot of workload, so high level of workload. You can be in a lot of meetings as well. And the meetings are important because it's around cross-functional collaboration as well. And so you might be meeting not only with your direct team, but also other areas of the company in order to deliver a product. And so it's very demanding. And I think it's important as product managers for us to, for us to really, um, provide value to the company, we have to be able to manage our stress and our emotions and our workload as well. In order to bring the best version of ourselves to the company, we have to be able to balance that. And so I think that, you know, being able to understand how hard it is in terms of the job and be able to like, listen to yourselves, talk to other PMs, right? Because most likely your team's going through the same thing.
[30:32] And so being able to like talk to others and kind of share, have a common and shared understanding of what we're going through is really important. And then being able to like, you know, really be able to like balance that stress and helps us create also a better work-life balance. And so I think that, we bring ourselves into our team meetings and our team sends that to you. And so in order for us to be a better product manager and a better product leader, it's about like understanding your team as well, right? So that's kind of that second later. So you're at the core, next later is your team. What is the emotion that you're bringing into that conversation? Are you stressed? Do you have a lot of negative energy? Because people will sense that too. And so it's always good to like remind ourselves to like breathe, to relax, to say it's okay. Problems are hard, but problems are solvable. and it doesn't just need to be you. Your team is there to support you as well in that problem solving.
[31:35] That helps you become a better product manager and leader with your team. But also understanding your team. What are their challenges? As we prioritize ideas and we gather effort estimates, how is your team feeling about that? Your designers, your engineers on the team, how are they feeling as they're designing and building a solution? Because ultimately, we all have to create a positive, collaborative work environment that makes everyone want to continue working together to be able to solve problems. So I think it's important to really understand the problems. And I think if you work in an iterative software development process, a very common step in the workflow is really to do retrospectives.
[32:18] That's a really important session for you to have with your team so that you understand what went well, what didn't go well, what do we need to do to improve, right? What action items can we take to improve the process or improve whatever, you know, didn't go well? And, you know, if you're doing scrum, then in that previous sprint. And so I think that that moment of like reflection and introspection is really important. It allows you to understand the challenges that your teams are facing. You can share your own as well and together, you know, be able to solve them and work as a better team. And so I think that empathy for yourself, that empathy for your team, and then ultimately empathy for your stakeholders, too. You know, I think that we have to be able to understand our stakeholders and the pressures that they're feeling, too. What are their pressures? What are their motivations? Like, what are their expectations and interests? Because that allows you to, like, understand, you know, what the broader vision or the broader business objectives are.
[33:19] And then be able to figure out, you know, well, what can we do to solve that problem? Maybe it's something I didn't know before. Maybe it's a challenge that I hadn't thought about before. But now that I know, like, what can I do to, like, improve or help others achieve their metrics? And so that, you know, stakeholders can be your direct stakeholder within product, but it could be all their stakeholders in the company, be it sales or marketing or support. Like, what are their competing priorities or the pressures of their feeling? And how can you ultimately, you know, help different areas of the company achieve kind of their, you know, whatever metrics they have or whatever outcomes they're wanting?
[33:57] So I think that, you know, we don't really talk about like, you know, when we talk about empathy a lot, it's towards our users, kind of that outside perspective. But it's also good to reflect back inside, not only to yourself, to the team, but also your stakeholders. And that ultimately helps us create an environment that, you know, we understand each other, we can be supportive of each other. And ultimately, I do think that it'll lead to a stronger company that really delivers like big, big outcomes. Yeah, I love that. And I think something you said earlier about experimentation and 90% of experiments fail, fail, quote unquote fail. But that's the whole point, right? And to embed that in the culture of, there's a saying, I think it's Nelson Mandela, that I never lose, I either win or I learn, right? And I think kind of embracing that type of mentality, right? Like, obviously, we're always looking for results. We're always looking for growth.
[34:55] We're business people. I get that. But if as a team and as our stakeholders, we can have that empathy and say, okay, everybody's after the same goal, generally speaking, but we all have different pressures. Let's learn about each other. And then also embed that culture that we as a group are experimenting on what we think, right? We have hypotheses. There's very few, you know, cut and dry answers in product management. And so we're always going to be learning. And it's okay to go through, go down a path and it not work out the way we thought. That's part of the process and kind of embracing that and having empathy for everyone involved, I think is really important. So I love that. Thank you for sharing those thoughts as well, because I think it's an important part of the conversation, right?
[35:37] Yeah, and I think like ultimately it's you're not just thinking about like your product success as a PM. You're thinking about overall team performance how are we achieving organizational objectives and so I think it's important to use empathy kind of in that same sense it allows the company just be able to succeed as well so I think that it could be pretty powerful and I I would love more more people kind of using these same strategies of like how do we learn about our users also with our teams and our managers and our leaders so that we can ultimately deliver deliver value yeah Yeah, absolutely.
[36:13] Well, I've loved this conversation. Thank you so much, Christina Crespo, for joining me and for sharing your wisdom. I think this is such an important conversation, and I've loved our chat, and I know that everyone out there listening did as well. Thank you, Christina, for being here. Awesome. It was great talking to you today, JJ. Thank you. And thank you all for joining us on Product Voices. Hope to see you on the next episode. Thank you for listening to Product Voices, hosted by JJ Rory. To find more information on our guests, resources discussed during the episode, or to submit a question for our Q&A episodes, visit the show's website, productvoices.com, and be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform. Thank you.
[36:52] Music.